|
Post by greydawnbreaking on Oct 6, 2013 21:56:47 GMT 10
Zen Niobe delivered 27/09/13, and GG Cherry Atomic delivered 28/09/13. So the babies are officially 8 or 9 days old today and the colors are coming in nicely. Still only a bit of fuzz but I can tell that the coats are coming. I'm finally confident to set the final tally at 24 live young. All are growing to a nice size, apart from a couple runts--one is a very tiny manx who I'm still worried I'll lose (even at 9 days old, she still looks barely more than newborn). She's hung in there this long, so I'm hoping she comes through. This is a tentative list of colors. I'm saying "ish" because there's two litters worth of genetic variables. Hopefully their coats will come more fully in and things look a little clearer. 3 blackish - 1 self, 2 fox 4 brownish fox 4 bluish - 1 marked, 3 self 4 lilacish - 1 marked, 3 self 7 BEW - 2 manx, 5 self 2 PEW manxFinal tally of pups listed below. Some pictures: The entire litter, with an attempt to sort by color. You can't see the contrast between the non-white, non-dark pups very easily under a flash, I'm afraid, but Lilacish is the far left group and Bluish is the middle one. Dark and white babies are on the right. My working hypothesis that Blackish is either black or agouti, and Brownish is either burmese or just smaller, less developed Blackish. I don't think either mom has b so I doubt they're chocolates. This is the three Blackish pups, compared to three of the Brownish pups. So far as I know, neither girl carries b or d dilution, so true blue and lilac are unlikely. What I'm calling Lilacish is a sort of light pinky-brown color that might be mock chocolate? I have no idea what Bluish will turn out to be, since it really does look like blue-grey with a silvery sheen. It's also possible this is the same color, just in different stages of development. It doesn't photograph well, but the difference is really clear in person. I think some might be foxes, but it's hard to tell. Not sure where marked came from, and there's been no sign of the expected brindling. The four manx, taken a couple days ago. The BEW will probably all end up bone or CPB, and PEW will likely be himalayan or siamese. Some BEW might in fact be PEW, I counted five pink-eyes at birth. The runt (second from right) hasn't changed much since this pic was taken. The expected colors of the litters: Cherry: longhair; mock chocolate, burmese, himalayan, and chinchillated-something-or-other; fox Niobe: manx; himalayan, siamese, CPB, and bone; brindle, agouti
|
|
|
Post by andy on Oct 6, 2013 22:35:55 GMT 10
It's so confusing when they're this age. You should also have havana in cherry's litter.
|
|
|
Post by greydawnbreaking on Oct 6, 2013 22:58:44 GMT 10
It's so confusing when they're this age. You should also have havana in cherry's litter. Either havana or chinchilla, I figured, depending on whether their parents had A or a. So you think all of the dark babies are havana or havana fox? If their parents were a/a x a/a(t) then I'd get a/a(t), a/a, a/a(t), and a/a. So basically havana fox, or havana. But that doesn't explain the bluish ones. I was hoping that maybe this was what chinchilla looked like.
|
|
|
Post by andy on Oct 7, 2013 8:02:00 GMT 10
I just had a look at the pairings for Cherry's litter you should get burmese, mock choc, havana and himilayan depending on what mum carries you could get choc, blue or lilac dilutions of any of these bubs half should be foxes none will be agouti based.
What color eyes does Bihar have? I'm trying to think what he would be I've only ever seen havana or coffee/reverse snowtigers.
|
|
|
Post by greydawnbreaking on Oct 7, 2013 9:15:04 GMT 10
Bihar has black eyes and looks like a BEW, except Mousekateers says he had faint black brindling as a pup. His brother has more visible brindling, that Mousekateers says is chocolate-colored but I don't know if that's a genotype or a phenotype. His mom was an agouti manx and his dad was a blue siamese from a litter that had blue and lilac pups. So he's definitely c(h), and probably c(e) considering how pale he is, carrying d and possibly b.
A(vy) had to have come from his mom, cause I can't see a way for a blue siamese to carry but not express it. That means A(vy)A or A(vy)a. If he's a black brindle I'm assuming his a-genes are A(vy)a, which would be consistent with what I know of his dad's genetics.
Niobe comes from a litter that has, I'm pretty sure, some agouti siblings, so I'm assuming she's either Aa or aa, but probably not AA. I don't think she'd have dark enough points if she was full agouti.
How soon can you tell longhair from standard coat? I can see longer guard hairs showing on some of the pups but I don't know if that's normal or not.
|
|
|
Post by greydawnbreaking on Oct 15, 2013 22:28:48 GMT 10
New pics! Babies opened their eyes a couple days ago and my new theory is that Cherry is actually a poor burmese, which would explain my discovery of 4 fox siamese pups. The marked pups are also siamese so I can't wait to see how the markings interact with their points when they develop. Final count 3 Havana (1 f fox, 2 m w/ bellyspots) 4 Burmese (1 f, 2 f fox, 1 m fox) 2 Siamese marked (1 f, 1 m) 6 Siamese (4 fox) 7 Bone (2 manx) 2 PEW or Himalayan (both manx) The bone and siamese pups are a bit hard to keep track of since there's so many, but I've got males and females in both. Anyone who's interested in the litter, I'm taking expressions of interest now. Zen has first pick and I'll keep a few but this litter will mostly be available for rehoming. The fathers of both litters are from a line of bucks who have been able to live together very successfully, even after matings, so I'd be willing to adopt out the bucks in pairs or threesomes. This was taken when the eyes were starting to open. The genetics of these litters are turning out to be a bit of a puzzle, suggestions are welcome. Poor mom. The moms are definitely feeling the stress, getting thinner and looking a bit frayed, but they're still unwaveringly devoted and the litters are doing great. I can't believe that out of 24 babies, I haven't lost a single one. These girls must have the milk production capability of Holsteins. I moved the moms and babies out of the main tub into a smaller tub that has less room but no mesh on the sides, since the pups were starting to squirm out through the wire. I'm starting to see the pups exploring the cage on their own, leaving the nests and climbing the bits of rope I've put in there for the moms. They're now about two and a half weeks old. Their temperaments are fantastic, and they're old enough now that I can start to tell different personalities. They're a bit popcorny when I try to pick them up but once I've picked them up they do some very alert and curious exploration for a bit and then settle down. I've never had one try to jump off my hand, and they also behave themselves when held by strangers. They'll groom themselves and each other and go to sleep while I'm still holding them. Conformation-wise, I've seen a few with lovely huge eyes, and their fur seems very dense and fluffy and it ruffles up adorably when they're washing their faces, hee. I'm not good at judging ears, but some of them look okay. Size is hugely varied, I've got some pups easily twice the size of others. There's one bone doe with a tail kink (probably acquired, since it's new) and two runts, but no other deformities or physical issues that I can see. All the manxes have perfect butts. \o/ All in all, I'm so proud of them. I couldn't be more happy with these babies.
|
|
|
Post by greydawnbreaking on Oct 20, 2013 13:10:48 GMT 10
Finally, thanks to a visit from Zen, I think I know what I've got! And after an hour of counting, checking under tails, and carefully peeling mice off my fingers (they cling worse than plastic wrap, it's impressive for a three week old creature) I present the following list.
Cherry x Sirocco
1 longhair female fox havana - reserved for Zen 1 longhair female havana - staying 1 longhair male havana - reserved for Andy
2 longhair female fox burmese - 1 reserved for Zen, 1 staying 1 longhair female burmese - available 1 longhair male fox burmese - available
1 longhair siamese male marked - staying 3 longhair siamese fox male - 1 staying, 2 available
Niobe x Bihar
3 standard female siamese fox - 1 reserved for Zen, 2 reserved for Andy 1 standard female siamese marked - staying
1 standard bone manx female - reserved for Zen 1 standard himalayan manx male - reserved for Zen 2 standard bone male - 1 staying, 1 available 2 standard bone female - available 1 standard bone female with kinked tail - available to pet home only 1 standard himalayan manx female - staying
Niobe, it's been conclusively determined, is a fox so some of those standard bones and himis may turn out to be fox as well.
Expressions of interest are welcome.
|
|
|
Post by andy on Oct 20, 2013 13:25:44 GMT 10
I'd love the male havana from Cherry's litter and the siamese fox sisters from Niobe's litter if that's ok?
|
|
|
Post by greydawnbreaking on Oct 20, 2013 22:10:54 GMT 10
I'd love the male havana from Cherry's litter and the siamese fox sisters from Niobe's litter if that's ok? Done!
|
|
|
Post by mousekateers on Oct 22, 2013 18:05:21 GMT 10
my new theory is that Cherry is actually a poor burmese, There's one bone doe with a tail kink (probably acquired, since it's new) Awww, Janette! Didn't realise you didn't know that Cherry was a Burmese! Nothing poor about her, she is a gorgeous Burmese, something that any mousery would give their eye teeth for! The kinked tail is genetic, I have one in Sirocco and Serena's litter. They sometimes pop up and they become more obvious as the pup grows.
|
|
|
Post by greydawnbreaking on Oct 22, 2013 22:01:29 GMT 10
my new theory is that Cherry is actually a poor burmese, There's one bone doe with a tail kink (probably acquired, since it's new) Awww, Janette! Didn't realise you didn't know that Cherry was a Burmese! Nothing poor about her, she is a gorgeous Burmese, something that any mousery would give their eye teeth for! The kinked tail is genetic, I have one in Sirocco and Serena's litter. They sometimes pop up and they become more obvious as the pup grows. Is she?! I didn't know that! That's really awesome, I'm glad to hear that about her. Most of the pictures I've found of burmese are much lighter, so I assumed she was too pale to be a good one. Plus she perfectly matched a picture of a mock chocolate I found. But I'm glad to know that her color's good, because all her burmese pups are basically photocopies of her. The kinked tail is really disappointing, since every so often a perfect white face and lovely set of ears pokes through the scrum on my hand and I think "!!" and then the rest of her comes through and it's her, of course. [sighs] She's got the best conformation of any of them, albeit to my rather inexperienced eye, and I can't breed her. Luckily she's got a personality as good as her face, so I should have no problem finding a pet home.
|
|
|
Post by mousekateers on Oct 23, 2013 8:53:08 GMT 10
You shouldn't rely on photos for colour the lighting makes colour very deceptive, and definitely don't rely on colours from overseas because they have the "extreme" gene which intensifies colour. And, don't rely on other people's descriptions because they are quite often wrong especially when trying to tell the difference between mock choc and Burmese.
Nothing wrong with a kinked tail. Some of our best mice conformationally have had kinked tails, and I would definitely keep and breed from a mouse with a kinked tail if that were the case. Sure, it will pop up sometimes but one out of 12 isn't a bad ratio.
|
|
|
Post by greydawnbreaking on Oct 23, 2013 20:34:48 GMT 10
I'd love the male havana from Cherry's litter and the siamese fox sisters from Niobe's litter if that's ok? Just to let you know, one of the standard siamese girls is now looking rather long-coated. Should she turn out to be a longhair, are you still interested? (Not gonna lie, I wish pups came labeled at birth.)
|
|
|
Post by andy on Oct 24, 2013 5:59:39 GMT 10
That's even better if they are
|
|
|
Post by greydawnbreaking on Oct 26, 2013 9:44:52 GMT 10
Can I request that you take another male or two as well? Sirocco, the father of Cherry's litter, lived with his brothers until he died and his nephew Bihar, the father of Niobe's litter, still successfully lives with his brother. Both colonies were sustainable even after individuals were removed for mating at various times. A major goal for this mating was to produce males who can live together, so I'd really like to give your havana boy a chance for company.
If the living arrangement doesn't work out I'd be happy to take back any male you don't want, at any time. I've got three LH siamese bucks, fox and not, who have their father's gorgeous fluffy coat, as well as some bone SH bucks.
|
|